Yes, that’s right. Sweet little ‘Sugar’ bit me.
It really wasn’t as bad as it sounds, though. It was more like a nip. A love bite? I’ve never been bitten by a horse, but I’ve seen how they are able to take a chunk out of another horse in just one bite. ‘Sugar’ basically pinched me with her teeth on my upper right arm, above my elbow.
I think she was trying to figure out a way to communicate with me. On Saturday I took her out for a walk down the long dirt road from Colleen’s ranch, like I did on Friday. We went about 1/4 mile down the road and down a hill, and that was when she bit me. I didn’t even see it coming. I immediately stopped, shook my finger at her and in a low voice told her that her rudeness was not appreciated. And then we kept walking. I think her little nip was her way of telling me we might want to turn around and go back to the house/barn. She didn’t try that again, though.
Ranchman John was out there with me and took some video of us walking.
I was hoping to get her to do her fast walk, but she wasn’t in the mood. She was also very distracted by Colleen’s herd watching us in their paddock beside the road.
I realized on Friday that ‘Sugar’ needs a refresher course on ground manners because she will crowd my space, cut me off, rub her face on me, nibble on my clothes, and try to trot circles around me, all while I take her out for a walk. I don’t like it one bit. When a dog jumps on your lap, runs around you, and tries to rub on you, it’s sweet. When a 900-1,000 lb horse does the same thing, it’s a little intimidating.
The things that I did with Baby Doll and other horses, to respect my space, don’t seem to work with ‘Sugar’. She’s very forward, curious and close to being fearless. Unlike Baby Doll, and her huge spooks, ‘Sugar’ walks towards something, stares hard at it and then keeps going. On our walks and rides I’ve taken her up to and beside dumpsters, propane tanks, waving flags, metal art sculptures, under a house awning, beside vehicles with barking dogs inside them, and being surrounded by dogs all around her legs. She doesn’t even snort, jump or step sideways. I’ve thrown my coat over her head, and acted like a crazy silly person jumping and hollering. She just stands there looking at me.
When I mounted her the other day from the right side, without a mounting block, I accidentally kicked the poor girl in the hip. She didn’t even move, but I was sure to apologize for my clumsiness.
All this confidence and bravery is great! It’s what I want in a trail horse, but it also means that she doesn’t seem to know what to do when you want her to move away from you. An elbow or finger poke into her side or chest doesn’t work. She won’t move away if I shake or swing a rope at her either. She just stands and looks at me, licking and chewing.
And when I’m working with her, she’s so curious and interested in everything else going on around us, it’s as if she has ADHD.
Colleen had to work hard at getting ‘Sugar’ to lunge, and even then ‘Sugar’ only goes a half to one circle around before stopping and turning to face her. I can get ‘Sugar’ to disengage her hips from both sides, first by tapping her with the rope on her side and then with just my energy.
But I wasn’t able to get her to back up. Not with my words, not with my hands or a finger, not with my energy, and not with the rope.
Yesterday I decided before I would put her away, I would work with her. So, while Ranchman John stood nearby, out on the driveway, I kept asking ‘Sugar’ to back-up, and she kept standing there, looking at me. I think she was confused and not being stubborn.
This went on for a few minutes and I think we were both beginning to get frustrated, when all of a sudden, she took off lunging, without being asked. She trotted in circles on the lead rope at least 6 times around me. Then she stopped, turned to look at me, licking and chewing, and then walked toward me. Now that would be nice, but I didn’t ask for it, so I didn’t welcome her. When she got close, I asked her again to back up.
Instead she went back to lunging, but in the other direction.
Ranchman John asked me if that’s what I asked her to do and I said, “No, but I think it’s what she thinks I want her to do”
She trotted around me about 5 times and then stopped, look at me, licking and chewing, and walked up to me again, and stood there waiting. This time I walked up to her, stood by her shoulder, holding the rope up in front of me and then taking big stomping steps, I walked towards her butt, saying ‘back up, back up’.
She took two steps backwards!!!
I praised her like mad and even gave her a cookie.
But now I had to know if she really did understand what I was asking her and what I wanted her to do. So, I stood beside her shoulder again, with the rope held up, I took my big forward steps with energy, back towards her butt, saying “back-up, back!”.
She took one, two, three, four steps backwards! And she stopped when I stopped. She got even more praise and another cookie. And she was licking and chewing like crazy. I loved the way she looked straight into my eyes, telling me she understood. It was really awesome!
Afterwards, we walked back towards the barn.
But halfway there, I stopped beside her shoulder, turned to face her butt with the rope up in my hands and asked her again to ‘back up’, This time I did it with even more energy, taking huge steps.
And guess what?
‘Sugar’ backed up and backed up and backed up, about 10 steps backwards! She stopped when I stopped and turned to me with an excited, eager look in her eyes, so of course I praised her like crazy, rubbed her cheeks and neck and gave her another cookie.
When we got into the barn and I stood next to the stall gate waiting to open it, ‘Sugar’ started crowding me. I turned around and faced her shoulder and just said calmly, ‘back up’ while taking a step forward towards her butt. She took a step back and stood there waiting. I was so proud of her!
I think she was proud of herself, too.
‘Sugar’ and I out on the road. I looked grouchy, but I was just freezing cold because I had left my insulated coat back in the truck.
39 comments :
Sounds like she has had too much desensitizing and not enough sensitizing. A horse needs both of these in equal amounts to become a willing, respectful partner. Bad ground manners can indeed over time translate into bad under saddle manners. I find the number one thing with horses I see at my barns is the owners spend way too much time in the saddle and none on the ground and I have to pay for it by getting pulled around, jumped on and sometimes even injured. Some owners especially I am constantly leaving notes for them because of their horses bad behaviour. I have even had to go as far to tell them to get help, pay me for my time fixing their horses issues with various things (not walking through doors or gates, pulling on the lead etc)or do their horse themselves because I am not going to get hurt working with a horse they refuse to maintain. My biggest pet peeve I would say.
I am not sure if I reccomended this book before to you but if you don't have it run out right now and get clinton andersons downunder horsemanship book.
It teaches step by step fool proof groundwork and riding that you would be able to do with Sugar or any horse. I really cannot keep this book at home because everyone keeps borrowing it. I don't follow any clinicians in particular but with horses that need sensitizing as Sugar does it goes leaps and bounds compared to other clinicians.
I just love it when they "get it" and the light comes on. Good job in being persistent and finding the way to get through to her. It seems she is trying really hard to please you.
Good for you Lisa. It seems that you needed to find a language that you both understand. The last photo of the two of you is gorgeous! Another breakthrough! I like Sugar....
Yes! Breakthroughs! Excellent!!
That nipping though--- I like what John Lyons has to say about it. Biting is a deliberate action. Kicks can be accidental. Bites are NOT. You have three seconds to convince that horse that You Are Going To Eat Him when he bites you. Then quit, and move on.
Good luck Lisa- be safe!!
I agree with Sydney about Clinton Anderson's book. I've seen him do amazing things to get a horse to respect your space and be less pushy. It sounds as if you're on the right track. All that licking Sugar is doing is her way of letting you know she's getting it! Good luck!
Ouch a bit! Gilly has never bit me but he has grabbed my coat, my clothes, hats...not anymore though! He stays in his space away from me. The book Sydney mentioned is great, I have it too.
I ALWAYS do ground work with Gilly before riding. When the round pen is able to be used again I will get back to ground school. I haven't gotten to ride for 3 months!!!
Will winter EVER be over! Pokey is also going to go to school, he is a REAL stinker. Pokey gets it quicker then Gilly though. He gets mad if you over do it with him. He will give me a mean look as if to say, "I GOT IT ALREADY!!"
Working with horses you have to be consistent; I need work on consistency! I wonder who needs more work me or Gilly? LOL
I'm glad you're aware of needing to do more ground work with Sugar. The video of her walking with you shows she wasn't paying that much attention to you. She should be able to walk at or behind your shoulder on a loose lead at all times and not crowd your space. So keep up that ground work until she pays more attention to you rather than other horses. Even if she gets distracted a quick reminder pull on the lead should bring her attention right back to you. And it shouldn't matter whether you're walking away from or back to home. Betty has done a good job of working on that with her Sugar and that's how they walk together now.
I agree with Sydney above - the Clinton Anderson book is a good one. We have it as well and, even though we have read most of the other training books and watched them in person, we tend to stay with Anderson's approach in most cases. He's pretty no-nonsense and everything is black and white.
The biting is something to watch. If she's mouthing or nibbling on you, then stop that right away. It might be something as simple as sticking your elbow in her face when she tries. The nibbles lead to biting. I learned that experience with Morgunn. He has always wanted to mouth and nibble and still does. He bit me once shortly after I got him and I used John Lyon's approach. As soon as he bit me I made him think he was going to die. I didn't touch him but I came at him acting and sounding like I was going to kill him. Then I just stopped and relaxed and petted him. No grudges. He hasn't tried since and that's been about five years now. Even though I've had Morgunn for 5 1/2 years now, he's almost 11 years old and he's a dependable horse, I still do groundwork with him every chance I get.
Given the condition of Sugar's hooves I suspect her previous owners didn't pay enough attention to her care and her training. She has a good disposition, but definitely needs some more work.
Good for you on what you're doing.
Dan
Wow, this is so exciting. It seems amazing to me that just in that short time of working with her, you got her to understand what you wanted. I would have expected that to take weeks! Maybe I am horse-naive and maybe they all can be trained quickly, but I somehow doubt it. This really seems to be a good match for you. Unfortunate about the bite, but she has her own way of communicating I suppose! Looking forward to more progress reports!
That's very good work - she sounds like a quick study! Once she understood what you wanted, she was glad to oblige.
I hope you get to take her home soon, I think the two of you are a match. :)
Your Parelli ground work should come in handy. Lily wouldn't back up from the ground, or flex either. Now she's all over it. It took a while to get her engaged enough (she was over anxious to please) to teach.
A biting horse is testing her power. Sounds like your getting a glimpse of her entire personality. Every horse has something to work on, my BO tells me. The magic is determining if it's something you can work on or not.
Sounds like it is.
Sugar sounds like a smart one! It won't take her long at all to learn what you want her too and to respect your space. She sounds like a keeper to me! =)
I asked Mike what it means when a horse bites/nips ya and he said it usually means the horse gets too many treats, that you have to be very careful when and how you feed the treats.
She sure is sounding good and learning quickly, just rusty on some things.
you are doing great work with this horse ! WHEN are you going to tell us if she is YOUR horse?
I had a horse that bit me in the boobs all the time..gosh it hurt..I hated that horse..never could get her to stop..sold her too and wasn't a bit sad.
She seems a bit low on energy..maybe lazy..not that lazy and slow are all bad..better than hyper and head tossing. :)
Way to be persistent. Keep up the great work.
Reading your post about your success with Sugar, and how she understands you and looks you in the eyes, made my eyes tear up with happiness.
I also have that Clinton Anderson book, I love it and use a lot of Clinton's training methods. They just make sense to me and the horse.
I am glad she figured out the backing. Good for you!
You're amazing, you know so much about horses! Great job getting through to her :)
Great job! Sounds like she is a little passive agresive dominant, lol big words huh lol, like one of my mares, she is testing you, and you did great! Seven games for respect, has worked with my pushy appy mare.
You are good, and she will learn who is boss.
The good news is that you are aware of the problem and you do know how to fix it. As you are able to hold her attention more — and it sounds like she does want to please you — she'll pay more attention to what you're telling her about respecting your space. You're doing great.
I see you put 'Sugar' in quotes, which kind of tells me if you keep her, she won't be keeping that name. Or do you believe changing a horse's name is bad luck?
Hey it sounds like you had some really good successes there. Training takes time. Remember to find what works for you and your horse, read lots of trainers, take the good and throw away the bad. Tom Dorance and Ray Hunt are the two I always go back to. If I have a problem I think, "What would Ray Hunt do." "Make the wrong thing hard and the right thing easy," is my mantra and a Ray Huntism.
Sounds like you made some progress with Sugar! I think the other posters have covered the biting! Cali is a little mouthy, and I'm teaching her to stop. Scout does the "I'm in your space" stuff, so I need to work with her, but another storm is forecast for NEXT weekend! UGH!
Sounds like you two are learning how to understand each other. You and Sugar look great together!
Sally
Wow, Lisa, Sugar shares a lot of personality traits with Rosie! Seriously! Rosie is nearly shock-proof, and loud noises and such pique her curiosity rather than scaring her. And when I walk her, her attention is often anywhere but on me. Around the house, though, she follows me so closely I can feel her whiskers on my leg, and if I stop suddenly she often runs into me. She loves leaning up against me, especially if she can also sit on my foot while I pet her.
So, yeah, I can see where having a 1,000-lb horse with personal space issues might be a bit...disturbing.
But I think Sugar may share another trait with Rosie--easy trainability! If Rosie follows a command twice in a row, she's got it. Seems like Sugar may be that clever, too!
Sooo exciting...is it just me, or does Sugar look better in every new picture? lol!
It definitely sounds like Sugar is testing you. You did a great job figuring out how to get her to back up. Sometimes you just need to find the right cue that someone has taught them. I like the fact that she doesn't spook and is bold about new things. But definitely make sure that you are the "boss". I'm dying to know - when will you decide if she's "the one"?
no horse is ever allowed to put their lips on ANY PART OF MY PERSON EVER. Which means nibbbling on my coat, shirt, hat. etc. It is NOT cute and lips one second and teeth the next! They are not showing affection they are seeing if they can be boss mare.
Good For you to demand your own personal bubble. Star knows but darn it if she doesnt push into it all the time if I get lazy about reminding her.
Good luck and I cant wait until you hit the trails!
I've gotten behind on reading my blogs so now I have to go update myself. Looks like you got a horse finally?
I'm also way behind in technique, training, skills in general...so no advice. But sounds like your working things out between you. She is marked up neat!
yes, sounds like she needs groundwork - that was a great start for you! And it sounds like she does want to respond, she just doesn't know what it is you want some of the time. I do a little bit of groundwork with every horse before I get on, every time, even if it's just a few steps.
- The Equestrian Vagabond
Boy...I really agree with Mrs Mom. That biting thing is really bad. Her explanation of what to do is right on.
On the bright side of this is that Sugar is obviously trainable...and you're able to do that with her. Excellent!
Well, I miss a few posts and you have a new horse!! WOW!! Sugar sounds like a nice little horse. I am with Mrs. Mom and gtyyup on the biting, nip that in the butt!!
With the backing issue, she may just not know what you are asking her. She probably knows how to back she just doesn't know they way you are asking her. It's good that she is trainable though. That is always a plus.
You have to remember that a lot of people never lunge their horses, they never find a need to. When i bought my mare she was 10 and had no clue how to lunge. She was trail ridden and they never saw a reason to lunge her. But Sugar sounds like she'll get it, my mare ended up getting it. That is where a round pen comes in handy!!
Good luck and she is a cute little mare!
Well, she is trainable. I think any time you put a new horse with a new human, you two have to work out your communication. The bite was a test to see how much she can get away with. Bombay was a major biter even after he was gelded, but he hasn't bit anyone in years because he's learned it's a no-no.
Ya know it's funny as I was reading your story of Sugar not backing up...I thought that she must have a cue for it that you were not aware of. Jesse will back one step or side step one step for each cluck I give him however I have had peole say... how do I get him over/back. Once they do it there he goes.
About the bite...I know when Jesse or Lady nuzzle me with their lips that they are showing affection. However when teeth are involved they get a big scolding. Jesse has learned when it's ok to be in my space...for hugs/kisses and he knows IF he puts his head near mine he better not bonk me cause I will bonk him harder back. I enjoy having my horses nuzzle me and put there nostrile up to mine and breathe the same air...but I have worked with them so that they do it safely...well still working with Lady cause we really just have had less than a year where she knew she would SOMEDAY be mine!
Sugar could have been trying to be affectionet with you...but my guess is that she is just testing you right now and decideing if she wants you to be her person. More than likely she has not had too much of interaction with contact and ground manners and she is testing the waters!!! Do try and keep her affectionet...but safe!!!
Sugar, sugar, honey, honey! I love the way your daughter was with you every step of the way. I had to watch it again to watch the horse!
Sounds like you are doing great, kicking the tires, checking the oil, seeing how she handles.
Have you decided yet???
Lisa, you better pop over to Own A Morgan!
Lisa- I am so glad you liked the stampede strings. You are going to love the other things I have made with his hair too. Of course the stampede strings are the only ones you can really wear. Thats all you get, the rest is a secret :P
Did you want button knots or peyote beading to finish off the stampede strings? I've been waiting to know before I finish them. Or do you want me to surprise you?
I was really taking a gamble making you the stampede strings. I kept himming and hawing going "is she going to want to wear these? Or are they going to make her too sad?" I have to say they are the most beautiful set of stampede strings I have made thus far. The tassels are in a word, perfect. I am very glad I jumped ahead and made them.
Whenever you feel down in the dumps just look at the items made of horse hair and know that horses are and always will be with you and think of the people who thought of them and made them and know you will always be loved no matter how far away your friends are :)
I just discovered your blog a couple of months ago and have slowly been catching up on your story. I have followed a similar road with my horses. I seem to have ended up with horses not quite suited to me and after I got bucked off hard, I lost all confidence. I was just lucky that I didn't suffer the physical injuries that you did. Recently I have found a great instuctor to help me with my mare and we are making progress. But there was a time when I considered selling her.
There is a pattern that I notice as I look back on when I bought the horses that I ended up losing confidence with. I always fell in love and overlooked the little things that I thought I could fix. I couldn't fix them. I didn't have the training experience or confidence and the horses knew it!
I am not implying that this is what is happening with you and Sugar. But rather a reminder not to let your heart make too many decisions. I fell in love with the horse and said to myself, "Well I don't really like that behavior, etc, but I can train it out, or I can get lessons and it will work" Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. For now I am sticking with my mare, but the next time I go horse shopping I am sticking firmly to what I want in a horse.
Hopefully Sugar is the one for you and it will be an easy, no doubts, decision in the end.
Well I feel ya on the biting!! While I have never been bitten or nipped by a grown horse, many of my babies have gone through a testing with biting phase... I'm glad you are focusing on her ground manners! I did notice a bit of "pushiness" in the video on the way up the road. But I am thrilled to see that she willingly leads from both sides! She seems to be doing great with you!
I'm loving that Sugar girl!!! You go, Lisa! You horse-training stud! :)
YOu sure have a lot of knowledgeable people reading your blog. Glad you're not counting on me for advice. :)
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