(The above title phrase has been changed and reversed to reflect my own personal situation involving my mare, Apache.)
Apache. KICKED. ME!!!! AGAIN!!
On Tuesday morning, Apache greeted me at the gate, so we could walk up together to the barn, so I could feed her and the llamas and goats their breakfast, just like I always do. I wasn’t touching her, or even talking to her. Just minding my own business.
Apache did seem a bit energetic and alert, but nothing crazy. She pulled in behind me and slightly to my left, like she always does. We were halfway up to the barn and then all of a sudden, she just blew past me, bucking like a wild horse! I didn't even realize she had clipped me until she was about 20 feet in front of me.
Thankfully I was close enough to her that she didn't get her back feet high enough to kick me in the face, or kick me hard enough to break any of my bones. It probably helped that I have plenty of extra padding on my hips, too. hah!
But she did manage to kick me hard enough to scrape off a quarter size piece of skin, even through my thick sweatpants…….
(Photo taken about an hour afterwards)
And she caused a huge purple bruise and small hematoma on my hip. And by evening I was also very sore and limping. Ouch!
(Photo taken about 4 hours later)
It was very windy Tuesday morning with 30-45 mph gusts, so I’m pretty sure that helped get Apache all riled up. She hasn't been fed any grain at all for over a month because she has become such a butterball from not working over the past 4 months.
The only thing I've recently changed in Apache’s diet is her hay. She was fed alfalfa last week because that was all that the feed store had available until Monday, but I usually only feed Apache straight grass hay. I’m glad I only bought two bales. I exchanged the second bale for straight grass hay yesterday. No more alfalfa for my roly-poly, air-fern, hyper mare.
The wind, the alfalfa and not much exercise combined to get my mare so full of herself that she had no respect for my personal space at all. Apache is totally in line for some serious ground manners lessons.....like don't kick or buck close to humans!!
(She really wanted to walk to me, but I kept sending her away, hoping to catch some of her crazy bucking, galloping fits on video)
I contacted my friend Colleen, who is also the Founder of Walkin N Circles Ranch Horse Rescue, and who also helped me purchase Apache, to tell her what happened and get some advice. She thinks Apache’s been standing around for too long without any job to do, and needs to be ridden regularly. She and I both believe that much of Apache’s lameness is due to a learned protective response after her July 4th injury and she needs to relearn how to use her leg correctly to walk uphill again, like I did after my ACL surgery when I had to relearn how to walk up the stairs. Colleen also thinks that I’m much too nice to my mare and Apache believes that she’s the leader of the “herd” now. I’m embarrassed to admit that there is some truth in that. I’m just a nice person, I can’t help it. But horses can take advantage of that and misconstrue it as a weakness.
Apache says, “Yeah, check out that sharp rear hoof, lady!”
I’m also aware that I still harbor fear from the last time she kicked me in the face, and I realize that I’ve been much more cautious around Apache, especially with potentially pushing her too far. I’ve been less hands-on with her, too, worried that she might flip around and kick me. I guess you could say I’ve been walking on egg shells around my mare.
“Shhhh, don’t wake her up!”
But seriously, can you blame me? I must be jinxed! I keep getting hurt by my horses. I've owned two different horses in three years and have been seriously hurt four times! And my son Jax has been hurt once! Ranchman John is becoming very worried that my life is going to end by the hooves of a horse.
What ticks me off about this time is that I was doing absolutely nothing to provoke a kick. I was so angry afterwards I that yelled, “Bad Horse!” and all that adrenaline prevented me from realizing how badly I was hurt. All Apache did while I yelled at her, was gallop around, flipping me off, bucking like a rodeo horse, twisting in mid air and basically standing on her head, doing sliding stops and roll backs. Amazing to think that this is a horse I've been so worried about, spending money left and right, to heal her lameness issues over the past 4 months!
(This video was taken later in the afternoon. Apache had apparently got all of her bucking and kicking out of her system in the morning, but she was still easily excitable just from Jax shaking her Ikea tarp hay bag….which normally doesn’t bother her. In fact she will readily stick her nose inside of it to eat the hay!)
Quite honestly I don't know what to do. I keep trying to forge onwards with my dreams of horse ownership, but around every bend, I just get knocked back onto my butt! I'm getting so frustrated.
I know lots of people get hurt with horses. We all know that they are 1,000 lb prey animals with definite minds of their own. In fact, on Monday night, my sons’ CPR instructor, who is an experienced horseman, told us that he was riding up in the Pecos last Spring, and his horse slipped on the muddy trail and fell down on top of him and then stepped on his ankle, causing a horrible open fracture of his leg and a compound fracture of his ankle! So, I know I’m not alone, but it just seems that every time I rebuild my confidence, I get hurt and I'm back at square one again.
I did decide to move Apache to the back paddock, which is about a 1/2 acre and a little less than half the size of the main paddock that she’s been in since I brought her home 8 months ago. I liked giving her all that extra space to free roam while having her greet me at the gate so we could walk up to the barn together, but now that I can’t trust her to respect my space and not buck or kick near me, she must be safely contained.
Apache, wearing her thick winter fuzzies, says “Who me?”
Also, my twinling Jax walks up behind the barn in the evening where we keep Zuni, our GSD, in her exercise yard and brings Zuni back down to spend the night in the house every night. Now that it’s been getting dark so early, he’s told me that Apache sometimes sneaks up from behind, startling him, and then gallops off. Sounds pretty scary if she’s also bucking and kicking, too. I don’t want her hurting my son, so she’s going to be corralled in the back paddock until next year (sounds like a long time, but it’s technically only two more months.)
And Colleen has offered to keep Apache at her place for a month and ride her for an hour, 5 days a week to gauge where my mare’s mind is and get her tuned up. Then afterwards, Colleen offered to help me regain my confidence again and give me some specialized handling instruction and maybe some riding lessons, too. I really want to do this, and Apache needs it, too, but it’ll have to wait until after Christmas because of the costs involved.
I will always love horses, but there's so much more I want to do in life, too. I'm wondering if I'm doomed when it comes to owning my own horses and should just call it quits before it's too late.
52 comments :
I am so sorry to hear this :( Hang in there, the right answer will come to you.
Sounds like that 'tune up' might be the way to go, at least to evaluate where your at. You're lucky to have experienced friends handy to help you out.
Oh Lisa! Don't give up. Look at me and be glad your injuries can still all be counted for. I have broken a few toes on each foot, tore tendons, nearly tore my rotator cuff right off and still suffer from a frozen shoulder. Sprained fingers, endured a bruise on the inside of my left calf/shin that took no word of a lie, 10 months to come back to normal colouring (and I still have the lump 9 years later), nearly took my leg off on a gate trail riding and gave myself the matching bruise/lump on my right calf/shin. Got black eyes, sprained fingers, damaged my already damaged sciatic nerve leaving a butt imprint in the lane this spring and even once as I am not so proud to admit got a concussion as I fell off a pony WITHOUT a helmet on at a younger age and the pony stepped on the left side of my stomach and left a very curious bruise and burn mark.
The most important thing is that you recognize why these things happen and know it is not the horses fault because they are prey animals and we are predators and they are doing something totally against their DNA. Remember, the only thing predictable about a horse is it is unpredictable and it's not about IF you are going to get hurt it's WHEN and how bad.
It sounds when it comes to personal space and bucking off Apache needs a serious "come to me jesus" moment. I just handed over a gelding to his owner as a respectable equine citizen after he came to me with a bucking problem when lunging or round penning. When I asked the horse to move away from me he had a bucking fit, basically telling me "FU LADY!". I gave him something to think about and doubled the energy I drove him with, both scaring him at first and making him think "gee this bucking thing sure is hard work if shes gonna make me gallop around for a wile every time I speed up and buck off" Just something to think about. I hope you can resolve what is going on. Every human and animal alike is looking for a leader, alpha mare or not!
OH man!
I never trust my mares when they are loose, especialy at feeding time, when they tend to get excited and fight with each other. If I take the hay out to the field to feed them I have to take a lunge whip or carrot stick with me, so they respect my space.
I may just have been this exuberence with her, they dont know that they are as big as they are. I had my pony kick me in the ribs when I went out to feed when I was a kid, and, luckly, I had the hay kicked off of my shoulder by my gelding a few years later, that was close!
I admire your ability to always, heal up and try it again!!
I can tell you I about had a heart attack this summer, I went out to feed and found 4, 20 something kids out in the field with my loose horses!!!!!! petting them!!!! I about came unglued at them!!!!!
Thank god the horses were being mellow, but it scared me to death!!!(my nephew was having a party at thier house next door)They thought they were his horses) dumb dumb dumb.
Hang in there girl!!!!
Lisa, I was thinking about your predicament today as I cleaned my paddocks and I thought about the two times you've been hurt by Apache lately. In both cases she wasn't spooking, being chased, or tripping (in which cases it would not be her fault) but both times she was acting disrespectful. I don't think you are to blame. In the first incident you said she was giving you warnings about her grouchy mood. Even horses who are hurting don't have to hurt people back.
I don't think workload or food is an excuse either because fit horses also act out.
I think you are right when you say your nature is to be kind to all animals and she is pushing her boundaries. I like what Sydney said, "We're all looking for a leader."
If I were you I'd protect myself, like Reddunappy says, carry a whip to show her your space rules.
And if I were you I'd do a lot of respect excercises. She's such a sweetheart I don't think it will take long before she submits to your leadership.
Breathe blogged about this a while back, how she hated to be the meanie but the alternative was putting herself at risk.
Also is Apache still using the slow-feeder? I was thinking this should help her not get so excited at feed times. But she's on a diet, so that makes it hard.
It's good that you only have one horse, so that her attention is not divided when you go into her pasture.
I wish you success and more good times with Apache.
~lytha
Well gosh darn girl~!!! I am SO sorry to hear of this! I remember those video's you first posted of her and I worried about her space respect...Yes it sounds like she definitely needs a "come to Jesus" meeting!!
ps~ Maybe full body armor isn't such a bad idea for you?! ;) Hope your hip gets to feeling better soon!!
{{HUGS}}
I'm so sorry you got hurt again and are so discouraged. Bruises like that hurt like heck and you are right - you were lucky.
While I like the idea of sending her off for some "come to Jesus" training, when she comes back, are you realistically going to be able to WORK her 5 times a week if that's what she needs? Can she be lunged enough to burn off serious energy? As a homeschooling mom with a full time job and 2 kids, I know we struggle to ride 3-4 times a week. If she will self exercise in the bigger pasture more than she will in the back pasture, could it be counter productive to move her? What about putting her on a lead rope and making her do 5 minutes of ground work before feeding? My horse will not get a bite of hay if he so much as puts his nose near my shoulder when I'm putting it in his stall. I'm probably just as nice and just as timid as you are but I wouldn't let my kids push me out of the way to get to food and they aren't nearly as dangerous as a horse!
It's a hard thing to come to grips with - that you absolutely have to be the boss with these big creatures and save the love and hugs for AFTER they've worked and/or done something good and when you are relatively sure you are safe.
Be careful and be safe and be TOUGH!! Then Apache can learn to be the horse you want her to be for you!
Don't be discouraged - that's just playfulness/excited horse stuff when the horse was too close to you. In my experience, being in a field with loose horses is one of the most dangerous situations.
One thing, though, she's clearly not paying attention to where you are and not staying out of your personal space. When you're with her, you might want to carry a long cotton lead, and swing it at her to make sure she stays at an appropriate distance - she'll get the idea pretty quickly I expect. Some leading work where she learns that you have clear and definite personal space boundaries that are never to be intruded on would be a good idea too - she can't come into your space but you can come into hers.
Be especially careful when food is involved and make sure she knows to wait and not push into your space.
Good luck - wish I could be there and give you a hug (and meet Apache).
Take the time, and just go out and be with Apache, watch what she does and how she acts and just spend some undemanding time. Don't feel bad, I have a very hard time getting on my horses. I had Sirocco trained two years ago and I fell off him and severly bruised my hip and was layed up for over 2 months, and I have not been back on him since. I feel bad but I can't do it until I feel safe and right now I haven't been able to spend the time with him to get his trust and respect and until I do I will not get back on him! I have ridden Annie and that will have to do for now. I am hoping to go to a clinic next spring and spend two weeks and hopefully move forward with him! I love my horses and I have found that if I never get on him, so what! He is mine and if I only want to look at him and pet him and take care of him that is my business no one elses. Do people ride mustangs out in the wild, NO! So, take your time and just really watch what Apache does in all different times of the day, get to know her reactions even the tiny ones! Get attuned to her moods and muscle and ear movements! You can learn a lot by watching and just being with her. You don't have to ride. Stay on the ground and do things on line! Get her to respect your space and you respect her space! Do different things on the ground, go over barrels, around barrels in figure eights, over poles or tree stumps etc. Have fun on the ground until you really get harmony together!
Oh man. Lisa, I think all of us understand how you must feel. Although you've certainly had a run of bad luck, I don't think you're doomed. If it is the lack of having a job, my only suggestion might be doing some ground work games with her.
Be safe!
Not a good thing. I'm afraid that Apache senses your fear and has become Alpha. It's too bad you can't send her to your friend now, when she needs the adjustment. Hope she does not get more flustered when you move her out of her regular surroundings and shelter. Are you able to do any ground work with her. Do you know how to line drive? If she just sits there for the next 8 weeks, don't you think she should be handled? The first thing she needs to learn is how to respect your space... It will be interesting to see how this goes. Having confidence is so important. Even if someone takes her, when she comes home you have to have it. Hope you can work something out so you don't have to give up on horses.
Getting hurt so many times can make you think....should I be with horses if they know I am walking on eggshells around them. Gosh, awhile ago things were going so well.
I have only been kicked once, by one of my minis and she pulled back as soon as she knew it was me and acted ashamed that she had done it at all.
I am still not riding, love them from the ground but I guess my dream is not coming true either.
Maybe later...
Why are you blaming the horse. Where is your responsibility in this? Was your horse on a lead? Would this have occurred if she had been?
Not everyone is cut out to be a horse person. I think you know in your head that this is not going to work for you. I would tell you this if we were face to face and it is not meant to be mean, but maybe horse ownership is not in your best interest, nor the horses best interest.
Your horse needs more exercise not less, penning her in a smaller area is not going to calm her down.
I know you love your horses, but love does not make you horse savvy, nor does intense fear. Good luck!
Lisa, don't give up! Things might seem negative now, but this is a learning curve for you. We all go through it, at different levels. My mentor once told me, you can't sneak a ride on a horse, and the same holds true for dealing with them on the ground. Always be the alpha mare! Don't pussyfoot around horses- they will walk all over you. I'm not afraid to crack my mares a good one with the lead rope if they get pushy or rude with me, and any unwanted behavior is dealt with firmly and immediately. If I don't have anything else, and they are misbehaving, I do the "grizzly bear" act- I become the predator, and they back off from my personal space. They are so big and strong that we can't out muscle them, but we can outsmart them. Don't think of them as sweet and cudddly- that's how you get hurt. Love them, yes, but demand respect. The key word being demand, there are no options. I've dealt with horses for nearly 50 years, and like everyone else have had my share of wrecks.
I agree that Apache needs to work, and hope you can get some riding time in. Also, I love your new header!
If you're not working with Apache every day, even just ground work, she's gonna get bored. And by walking on eggshells around her, you're giving her the idea that she's in charge. Put those two together and I guess that's what you've got.
I think no matter what animal you're working with, every interaction becomes part of their training; if you don't interact with them constantly, they become untrained. Even going out every other day to do groundwork with her would keep her training fresh, and constantly remind--and reassure--her that yes, you are in charge.
Perhaps you're too focused on the emotional relationship you've developed with her (which is good, don't get me wrong!), and have ignored the hierarchical relationship you need to maintain.
There, that's two cents worth, for no charge! Good luck!
When horses are happy they run and buck. They don't understand that when WE get kicked it hurts. My gelding kicked me in the thigh when I let him in his pasture one morning. Now when I let a horse loose in a pasture, I turn them around to face me first. Then I let them loose. Things like that just happen. Horses are not lap dogs, they can hurt you. Just be careful.
Your naturally submissive, and so is Apache [of course, thats judging from previous posts, lol, I am probably dead wrong.] If thats the case, then maybe she ISN'T happy with being dominant. She wants to feel secure under authority, and perhaps she's acting out and is a little anxious. I'm sure the alfalfa made it even more apparent, HAHAH!
I'm sure the riding lessons will address these issues between you and Apache. She seems like a sweet mare, a real gem. Don't let her go.
OK, you're done getting kicked now, you've had your quota.
The following is not the same problem as yours, but is similar.
We have here (at the moment) 12 horses. When you take one out, they all stand at the gate waiting to come out too, be fed, petted, what have you. When you want to lead the horse back in through the gate, they're all still standing around. Some people here just try to squeeze in with the horse, hoping not to offend the other horses. Well. Here *I* come leading the horse, and I make a HUGE stink (just like the herd boss), shooing, clicking, and swinging the rope, so anybody who doesn't immediately get out of the way gets themselves hit on the butt or shoulder or face. I don't want to get run over by the lower totem pole horse, who jumps on top of me because he's being bitten on the other side by the upper totem pole horse. When I go out there, especially with more than 2 horses in a herd, I want PERSONAL SPACE, and I want A LOT of it.
Maybe, like Colleen says, with your mare you need to establish a BIG personal space until YOU decide how close she can come in and when. Sounds like Apache didn't want to hurt you, she's just treating you like another horse (that maybe she's the herd boss of). A kick to another horse wouldn't be so serious.
Now, having said that, MY horse just ran over me the other day, trying to keep another horse away from me! I got mad and even took both my shoes off to throw at him, but he had no clue what he'd done. My fault for letting him in my personal space with other horses around. (I know - he's spoiled!)
Don't give up yet!!!!
- The Equestrian Vagabond
Lisa! I had no idea yesterday that you were hurting, both physically and emotionally. What a blow. I'm sorry you got hurt.
Of course, I know very little about horses, but this incident reminds me of Caroline when she's tired at night. She gets very excited, and jumpy, and her bones seem to pop out and poke me every time she moves! She doesn't mean to hurt me, she just seems to forget where her elbows are, (and her knees, and her chin). She just goes crazy, climbing on me, and ends up poking me in the ribs, or bucking me with her head. Of course, she only weighs about 40 lbs! And, she speaks English, so I can reason with her. . .
:o)
Anyway, I don't think it sounds like Apache meant to hurt you. It seems she just forgot where she was, and got a bit excited. Maybe she's actually feeling good for once, and it's exciting to her? I know that when my kids have been sick, the first day they feel better they are SO HAPPY to feel good! They just want to jump for joy! Maybe she was just jumping for joy, and forgot you were so close?
Of course, horses aren't children. You need to do what you need to do to take care of Apache and protect yourself and your family. I hope you figure it out soon.
I agree with Colleen and Merri: it sounds very much like Apache has become the Queen. Since she is Queen, she is now allowed, nay obligated to boss you around. By abdicating your own Queenship, you allowed her to take it (and, as others have mentioned, she probably doesn't really want it!).
I think Colleen's plan is a good one: get that mare in work now and get yourself in work now as well. The mare needs to learn that all humans out-rank all horses. Hmmm, you need to learn that too, it seems. You need to learn to walk into a crowd (of horses or teenagers or stockbrokers, it's all the same) and have them back respectfully away to allow you the room that you, as Queen, rightfully need.
Rudunappy mentioned feeding time. At feeding time, my mares must demonstrate submission by approaching me with heads averted. When I get to the place where I will leave piles of hay, they must stay away from it, feet still, ears soft and faces pointed AWAY from me and the food. (I do separate them at feeding time, so I'm only doing this with one horse at a time, not a crowd). If they are too close, they must back up. Head wringing, feet moving, ears pinned: these are tickets to no food. At first, I had to back Fiddle 50 feet away from the food every morning. Now if she tries to overstep, I say the word "back" very quietly--and she does it, because I have enforced the rule every day for more than a year. We don't get to forget part of the ritual because it's raining or I'm late for work or whatever. This is safety, and it's vital.
I'm sorry to say that the common denominator in these exchanges (you + Baby Doll, you + Apache) is YOU. I'm happy to say that YOU are perfectly capable of learning the skills to fix this. Hell, woman--you've survived childbirth. You can learn to move a horse just by standing with "bossy posture." It's tons easier than bearing twins!
Get busy, because I want to hear about your happy experiences again. You can do this!
Interesting....where do these people come from anyway?
I don't remember Miss Dawn ever visiting my blog before and all of a sudden she stops by to throw such sage advice at me, of course not knowing anything about me or my situation. And from reading Dawn's profile, Dawn doesn't seem to have any experience with horses whatsoever.
I don't mind my longtime blog friends stopping by with advice and similar experiences to share, but where do these nobodies get off sticking their noses in when noone asked them to?
Why do soem people feel such entitlement anyway?
Dawn, go back to your Busy Hands/Warm Heart blog filled with safe and cozy knitting, vegetable harvesting, and dog cuddles. Until you've experiences just a little of what I and other horses owners have been through, your opinions are not welcome!
Sincerely,
~Lisa
And to all the rest of you who left me comments, thank you for the support, advice and comraderie. It especially helped knowing that I'm not the only one who has been injured by their horse. And you are all correct that they are not lapdogs and I should never let my guard down because horses will always be unpredictable.
As for those of you worried about the itty bitty paddock and Apache being left to rot in there for the next two months. That won't happen. It's still plenty big enough, the size of a small indoor arena, for her to get in a good gallop. And it's on a steep hill, so she has to run up to the barn to get her hay and water all day long. She gets daily interaction when she's fed and the other end of her paddock is right beside my neighbor's barn so she can converse with her 4 horses.
I will try to take a photo of it soon, so you can all see that my horse is not being deprived.
As for me being more hands-off since I was kicked in the head, I didn't mean that Apache wasn't getting any attention at all. I meant that I wasn't working her on a lunge line or in a round pen, mainly because I wanted her to heal up from whatever lameness she's had.
At least several times a week she and I do practice sessions on our obstacle course as well as lateral and backing up exercises. She is hand-grazed by me down beside my house at least once a week and she is groomed, breshed and petted daily, including having her hooves picked out(and yes, I put my big girl panties on for those scary back hooves....but I get still 'er done!)
So there ya go. I don't think Apache is being neglected or abused, do you?
~Lisa
Nope, I never suspected that Apache was neglected or abused. Lisa would neglect herself long before she would neglect a child, a horse, or even a chicken!
What Apache needs now is a new Queen. You can do that. You are strong, you are smart. You need to learn, and you need to practice, and then, by stars, there will be no stopping the pair of you!
Aw man, well that sucks, and looks pretty painful. Silly mares. Sorry to hear about that. Maybe start carrying a dressage whip or a crop with you so she knows she better respect your boundries?
Klein used to be a punk when she was younger on the longe line. When she decided she'd had enough she would stop, stomp, and snort. I'd tell her to move it and she'd try to kick out at me in protest. That is one BIG hoof and I was always out of the line of fire. It took a while of quick corrections but she finally got the point that it was UNACCEPTABLE!! Every now and then she'll get pissy on the longe line and I'll see that hip starting to swing to the inside and I get after her to move it away from me NOW. She did get me one time just barely. She was on the longe line and had a little hissy fit (the longe line is so incredibly boring to her) and kicked out just slightly getting me in the upper leg. A rookie mistake on my part that won't happen again. I put her to work to let her know that acting up like that is not going to get her out of work, it only gets her in deeper.
Hopefully like the other reader said, you've hit your quota :)
One more thing, don't get too discouraged!! Look at all those great pics in your new banner!!!!
Lisa,
No - Apache is not being abused or neglected and I don't think anyone meant that at all from what I read. Everyone is just concerned about your safety and trying to suggest ways to help you. I like hearing that you are working with her on your obstacles on a regular basis. That's good. Now take it step further. That is more of a desensitizing thing. She's listening to you but not necessarily DOING specific tasks for you. Search "showmanship classes" on YouTube. I know you don't have any interest in showing but practicing this type of thing is great for ground work and establishing a strong respect. When you tell your horse to move forward, back, pivot, walk, jog - they'd better do it. From my experience, the people that do really well in showmanship and practice it regularly have the most well behaved horses both on a lead AND when riding.
We board in a barn with 34 stalls. There are all types of horses and people doing every type of riding imaginable. The ones that take time to do serious ground work have the best relationships with their horses.
You can make this work for you and Apache!! Keep those big girl panties on and make a commitment to do whatever it takes to bring her back around to the horse you love to ride!
Oh Lisa, I am so sorry that Apache kicked you again! Hope your feeling better soon!
When I turn out horses at work, since they are locked up in stalls almost 24/7, it is scary turning them out. They have so much pent up energy and we have to be so careful when setting them free. I will stand almost all the way behind the gate, so when I take the lead rope off, they all turn, buck and kick out at the human, but not in a mean way, they are just expressing the "I'm free and get to play!" Since I am standing behind the gate, the gate is my protective barrier, plus I immediately go backwards with the gate. Luckily I have not been kicked yet.
Injuries from horses aren't fun, especially from your own horse. I actually have been lucky and have only been injured at work a few times, and I handle 20+ horses a day!!
I think it is a good idea to have Colleen work with her consistently. I think that will really help. Good luck Lisa, and please don't give up on horses!!
Lisa - I guess because you are presenting a problem, people want to help you solve it. However, we have to remember that we can't possibly have the entire picture just from reading your blog.
Before I read your post, I've been thinking about why my horses don't try to kick people. Every morning and every night, I lean under their bellies to attach and detach straps on their winter blankets. I even walk up from behind them and spank them on their butts as an act of affection. Of course, I make sure they know I'm there first. I've had lots of problems with spooking, but none with kicking, save the one time that Bombay kicked a fly off his pee-pee and my thigh happened to be in the way. (Knock on wood.)
You know that moving a horse's feet around is the key to gaining dominance and respect. You're doing that. I guess the other part is to draw clear boundaries of which behaviors are not tolerated. Anything that could remotely lead to someone getting hurt should not be tolerated. For instance, when the horses run freestyle around me, I yell, "HEY! QUIT!" Then they stop. After me repeating that reaction enough times, they know not to run around or past me.
If yelling in my angry voice isn't enough, I break out the long whip and crack it at them to keep them away from me while I'm doing my chores. Obviously, you can't always keep horses on lead ropes every time you enter the paddock. Usually, cracking the whip in their general direction enough, but if they get really obnoxious about invading my safe space without invitation, I'll smack them on the rear with the long whip so that I'm out of kicking distance.
Dominant horses bite and kick each other to send the other one out of their space, and it would be hard for us to do worse damage to a horse than other horses do to it on a daily basis. I think correcting horses is necessary and is a part of their culture, and unfortunately there are a lot of do-gooders who mistake that as abuse. I just ignore them.
Bombay was my first horse and he was a handful when it was just me working with him. Once I got Lostine, she did much of the work of keeping him in line. Sometimes I think it is beneficial to have more than one horse in the same paddock for that reason.
Lostine is the Queen of sending horses away, but she has also taught them that they are welcome to come close if they help "scratch" her back gently. As soon as they nip too hard during the mutual grooming session, she sends them off again. They learn just the right amount of pressure to use to scratch Lostine's back so that they can stay welcome in her bubble.
After watching my three horses interact for years, I see what cowards they are. Someone always backs down quickly. They are at a point where a pair of pinned ears will send them away. So, our challenge as humans is to find a way of communicating pinned ears to the horses. Horses also need immediate retribution for bad behavior. When Lostine even pretended to nip at me when I cinched up her saddle, she immediately got an elbow in the face.
(Although sometimes that back fires, because the other day I gave Bombay an elbow in the face, because he was trying to rip some hay out of my hands, and he accidentally bit my elbow instead of the hay.)
But the point is that Lostine no longer attempts to nip me. Now if she so much as turns her teeth toward me while I'm cinching her up (and I barely tighten that thing), I give her my angry eyes and she immediately turns her head away...
I just wanted to add that I really like the new header at the top of the page. Inspiration for where you want to be again - soon! Take care :)
Sending your horse to a trainer is a great idea...but only if you also go to the same trainer at the same time. Trust me on this....if you send your horse alone, she'll come back well-trained, but that will revert very quickly and she'll be back to the same disrespectful horse she was before.
You have to learn the same things she's learning, so that you can continue it when you are back at home.
Don't give up on horses just yet. You are frustrated, tired and hurting. Give yourself and Apache the perspective that only a little bit of time can provide.
Wow, lots of advice -- and some of it sounded pretty good. I know you'll do what's right - just give yourself some time. The only thing I would add is when you set your boundaries with Apache you're not being mean. I love the way the Dog Whisperer states it -- be a calm and assertive herd (pack) leader. Horses, like dogs, live in the moment and we need to learn that as well.
I wish you the best.
Regards,
Dan
With me...being in the company of my horses and donkey is enough for daily satisfaction. Anything else is icing on the cake.
Hope you find your niche. ;-)
Lisa,
There's a reason I stopped following your blog. It's because when people present you with things you don't want to hear, you lash out and attack them. All of the comments I read were respectful and people trying to be helpful. If you don't want to get any advice, stop putting yourself up on the web - it's that simple. We have this little thing called freedom of speech and you're exercising your right by writing your blog. The commenters are exercising their right by commenting on your blog. If you truly don't want any advice or comments, either make your blog private or turn off the ability for comments.
I'm sorry you don't like what you're hearing, but it's all fairly accurate. Apache has become the alpha and she senses your fear and is maximizing on the opportunity. You need to take a stand with that horse before you get hurt even worse.
One other thing you might want to have checked out - she's pretty cresty in the neck and that could perhaps indicate that she's insulin resistant. If she were, then sometimes both foot sensitivity and generalized body soreness can result from that, leading to grouchiness. There are treatments and feed management practices that can help with that, and some of the horses at our barn who are IR are on a chromium/magnesium supplement that makes a big difference.
By the way, love the new header!
I disagree Gun Diva. Everyone...EXCEPT "Dawn" was being respectful and polite in their comments to me. And I appreciated everyone else's objective observations and ideas.
As for your accusation that I attack anyone that leaves me unsolicited, unkind comments, well I do have a right to defend myself after all. I do warn potential commenters with an honest, straight forward disclaimer in my comment's box. Perhaps you've read it?
The last thing I say is "Think before you comment!"
Ultimately, I am who I am, and noone is being forced to either read or leave a comment on my blog.
I don't know about you, but I don't go skimming around the blog world looking to leave mean-spirited comments filled with unasked for advice to people I don't even know and have not been reading along on their blog for at least a few months. If I start reading a new blog, I try to get to know them a little better first.
Just like you and your friend, BECG, who like Dawn, just swooped in from nowhere, not knowing the full situation, and also left unsolicited advice. None of you were forced to read my blog or leave comments.
I had no idea you were following my blog at one time, GunDiva. I don't keep up with any of that Follower stuff anyway. But I think I've only read your blog a handful of times last summer, and haven't read it since then, so I don't leave comments there. What you do with your blog and life is none of my business. So, I'm not sure why you would go to all the trouble of coming back to my blog over and over to read my blog and comment.
I shouldn't have to make my blog private or disable my comments to protect it from the few mean-spirited know-it-alls who try to ruin someone's day, just to make themselves feel better.
It's like telling a naughty child, not to open the box with the poisonous snake inside. If the child doesn't like the snake, why does she keep opening the box, and then wondering why she keeps getting bitten?
Like I've said over and over before, ad nauseum, noone is forced to read anyone's blog, especially not someone they don't even know.
And they certainly should not assume their unasked for advice is welcome, just because they think they have a right to open their mouths (or type on a computer).
Some people seem to have forgotten their basic manners like, "A little kindness goes a long way"
and
"If you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all".
~Lisa
I disagree Gun Diva. Everyone...EXCEPT "Dawn" was being respectful and polite in their comments to me. And I appreciated everyone else's objective observations and ideas.
As for your accusation that I attack anyone that leaves me unsolicited, unkind comments, well I do have a right to defend myself after all. I do warn potential commenters with an honest, straight forward disclaimer in my comment's box. Perhaps you've read it?
The last thing I say is "Think before you comment!"
Ultimately, I am who I am, and noone is being forced to either read or leave a comment on my blog.
I don't know about you, but I don't go skimming around the blog world looking to leave mean-spirited comments filled with unasked for advice to people I don't even know and have not been reading along on their blog for at least a few months. If I start reading a new blog, I try to get to know them a little better first.
Just like you and your friend, BECG, who like Dawn, just swooped in from nowhere, not knowing the full situation, and also left unsolicited advice. None of you were forced to read my blog or leave comments.
I had no idea you were following my blog at one time, GunDiva. I don't keep up with any of that Follower stuff anyway. But I think I've only read your blog a handful of times last summer, and haven't read it since then, so I don't leave comments there. What you do with your blog and life is none of my business. So, I'm not sure why you would go to all the trouble of coming back to my blog over and over to read my blog and comment.
I shouldn't have to make my blog private or disable my comments to protect it from the few mean-spirited know-it-alls who try to ruin someone's day, just to make themselves feel better.
It's like telling a naughty child, not to open the box with the poisonous snake inside. If the child doesn't like the snake, why does she keep opening the box, and then wondering why she keeps getting bitten?
Like I've said over and over before, ad nauseum, noone is forced to read anyone's blog, especially not someone they don't even know.
And they certainly should not assume their unasked for advice is welcome, just because they think they have a right to open their mouths (or type on a computer).
Some people seem to have forgotten their basic manners like, "A little kindness goes a long way"
and
"If you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all".
~Lisa
Practice what you preach, Lisa, practice what you preach.
Of course I do, GunDiva. I'm not the one hanging out on your blog's comment's section harassing you now, am I?
I don't think I have the power to freeze my blog onto your computer screen.
~Lisa
Oh and did you not understand the meaning behind what I said:
"It's like telling a naughty child, not to open the box with the poisonous snake inside. If the child doesn't like the snake, why does she keep opening the box, and then wondering why she keeps getting bitten?"
~Lisa
aka~ "The snake in the box"
Actually Lisa I have commented before. Sorry you dont like hearing my thoughts, this time. I had been around horses most of my life. My husband is going blind so now we live in the city where he can get around, not that this is relevent to the issue at hand. If you choose to use your blog as your personal private pity party so be it. If all you want is people to stand behind you and support your fear, again so be it. That is your choice.
My point was that you are responsible for your horse and your actions or lack of them. Blaming the horse for being a horse, well, had you been in charge that wouldnt have happened. You are the one who stated you were just walking along, not minding her at all. That is where your part of the responsibility lies.
Its funny I got more responses privately about how right I am than you have gotten.
Oh Lisa! I didn't see this post !~ sorry you got hurt and spooked again especially after how far you have come.I tend to agree with Colleens take on things ,that APache need to get back to work she is likely acting out from boredom.That said you have a wonderful resource in Colleen and your friend at Walking in Circles and I hope they are able to work with you to get things sorted out . You have done amazing work with your skills and with Apache , and whatever you decide to do , you are and will always be a gift to horses whatever role that you take on
Sorry about your new bruise! Glad it wasn't as bad as last time. It's a crazy time of year for horses, they're all playful and not always thinking.
I hope you decide to take Colleen up on her offer of help. Apache seems like a good mare, well worth the effort. I bet you'll feel better if you stick with it. Horses can be such wonderful teachers.
Dawn,
Well I had no idea there was a competition going on with private responses, but if it makes you feel better about yourself..... good for you.
If you had bothered to read my entire post, instead of fixating on whatever it was that made you feel it was fair to attack me, accuse me, tell me how I'm feeling, and what I should and shouldn't talk about on my blog, and tell me what decisions I should make for my life, you'd have seen that I did take responsibility for what happened, which is why I sought help with my friends who are experienced horse people and who offered their help to me.
I am aware Apache is just a horse and cannot be trusted and I should never become relaxed or complacent around her.
Not every one can be as perfect as you. Must be nice to have never make a mistake in your entire life.
People like you are the reason many people give up on their dreams. You're the kind of person who has no sympathy or empathy for anyone else, preferring instead to make others feel bad, while it somehow makes you feel smug and good about yourself.
I'm sorry your life is so miserable that you feel the need to just show up and try to make others feel bad, too. But your visits and comments to my blog are not welcome anymore.
~Lisa
Hey Kate,
Thanks for the comment and concern. I actually addressed this question when BECG gave me the diagnosis that Apache must be IR. I had Apache tested and examined by two local vets and both said Apache is not IR.
The first time I had her tested and examined was by the advice of Sydney of Bitless horse, right after I bought her. My vet told me that Apache is just built that way. He said that the crestiness is not lumpy or fatty like an IR horse typically is nd her results came back negative in the safe range. She also doesn't have the fat pads above her tail or on her shoulders or withers.
The second time I had her tested and examined was from a different vet when I was trying to diagnose Apache's lameness. The tests came back negative and the vet told me basically the same thing that my regular vet told me 8 months ago.
She did recommend a diet anyway, though, just to be on the safe side and to keep her healthy. I think she's already lost some weight, although it's difficult to tell under all her winter fuzz.
~Lisa
Sounds like Apache is getting very uppity and bossy and needs to know her place.
Carry a lunge whip with you when you are in her company and keep her at a respectful distance. Get your kids to carry one too.
She is obviously feeling better and is bored. Tough love required, Lisa. You be tough on her - she will like you better.
Janet xx
Hay Lisa...I read about 20 of the comments but there are too many so I may be saying something someone has already said.
You have a mare...they are soooooo just like women and have the same kind of hormornal mood swings. Was she in heat when she kick you either time??? Have you considered putting her on one of the MARE CALM type of supplement??? Lady rarely shows any mare symptoms...but whenever she is naughty...I realize she come into heat within the next few days. And in kicking back at you she could be indicating that she is in some kind of pain in her female parts...I have read that during a mares cycle they can have "CRAMPS" simular to a womans cramp.
I really wish we lived closer...I still beleive you can do this and hate to see you give up. One last thing...does Apache have an actual pasture mate??? did she at her last home??? She seems to have taken the "alpha role" with you...maybe if she had a buddy she could be alpha with she would no longer need to be alpha with you! Just some thoughts for you to ponder about!
Lisa: I have to go out and through my pasture to feed Libby and guest horse, Lilly. Lilly will get Libby all riled up. I carry A WHIP! The first few times I started to feed, (normally do not need to but winter I do) I carried a whip! It is MY WHEEL BARROW~! Loaded with their food! Until I SAY it is theres and that is when I put it in there food tub. At first they crowded me, and I had to do a lot of chasing off. All I had to do was WAVE the whip. NEVER once touched them. NOW....they walk away from me when I enter the pasture and I can feed in peace. Oh they still race around, and kick their heals up, but not near me! I had Sissy and Sadie trained last year, quite by accident actually, to wait at their feed tubs for me. It was so cute. I am working on that with Lilly and Libby too. Getting there. They are getting the hint. I try to feed before dark, but one day I will have to feed in the dark, and I need to be safe. Chasing them away from "MY FOOD" until I "LET" them have it, lets them know to go to their food tub, and they will get rewarded. Something to think about. The whip, is an extention of your arm, AND... when Apache kicks her heels up at you, Reach over and smack her if your fast enough. Last year, Sadie was horrible and would turn her butt to me and kick at me. THE PRIME opportunity came, and I got a good SMACK on her butt, and she NEVER did that to me again! i could trust her after that. That was the ONE AND ONLY TIME I had to touch any of the horses....Just waving it, lets them know to back off. Good luck...Apache just needs to learn to respect your space. It is easy to get over looked, because I love Libby walking next to me too, but sometimes it is NOT APPROPRIATE.
Lisa: I have to go out and through my pasture to feed Libby and guest horse, Lilly. Lilly will get Libby all riled up. I carry A WHIP! The first few times I started to feed, (normally do not need to but winter I do) I carried a whip! It is MY WHEEL BARROW~! Loaded with their food! Until I SAY it is theres and that is when I put it in there food tub. At first they crowded me, and I had to do a lot of chasing off. All I had to do was WAVE the whip. NEVER once touched them. NOW....they walk away from me when I enter the pasture and I can feed in peace. Oh they still race around, and kick their heals up, but not near me! I had Sissy and Sadie trained last year, quite by accident actually, to wait at their feed tubs for me. It was so cute. I am working on that with Lilly and Libby too. Getting there. They are getting the hint. I try to feed before dark, but one day I will have to feed in the dark, and I need to be safe. Chasing them away from "MY FOOD" until I "LET" them have it, lets them know to go to their food tub, and they will get rewarded. Something to think about. The whip, is an extention of your arm, AND... when Apache kicks her heels up at you, Reach over and smack her if your fast enough. Last year, Sadie was horrible and would turn her butt to me and kick at me. THE PRIME opportunity came, and I got a good SMACK on her butt, and she NEVER did that to me again! i could trust her after that. That was the ONE AND ONLY TIME I had to touch any of the horses....Just waving it, lets them know to back off. Good luck...Apache just needs to learn to respect your space. It is easy to get over looked, because I love Libby walking next to me too, but sometimes it is NOT APPROPRIATE.
Girl friend, I wouldn't blame you for taking a vacation from this.
Still I think it might be worth trying to redraw the lines with Apache. Leadership can change in one day, but has to be maintained constantly. The lines have to be good and deep and never move.
It's hard for people like us, I think. Generally affectionate, good with animals overall.
I'm still reminding myself to keep the lines very clear with Smokey - and Lily, who can definitely become a pushy broad, if left alone too long. It's hard and its been an adjustment, but one I've gotten a little better at. Horses notice things that are so subtle, it's tough to get away with any slip.
I know it's been a while since you posted this, but I wanted you to know you're in my heart on this journey. If I can help, I certainly would like to.
Hi Lisa, I am sorry you got hurt again. I think that Sydney and Shirley gave you the best advice.
I had a horse growing up..the damndest mare with bad habits I was always hurt. I finally just didn't ride her anymore. Then years later my oldest daughter got two horses..I rode again..the more we worked with the flighty mares the better they got..except when they were in heat..then anything was possible.
Keep working with Apache everyday if you can..she probably needs a job..and you can be the leader and she will be the follower..you can do the lunge line and some of your training things even if you don't ride. Take care..I know your heart is in the right place with Apache:)
I am so sorry you got kicked again. For the most part you've gotten good advice in the comments. You need to re-establish yourself as the boss. Sounds like you have a good game plan and I wish you well.
Oh, Lisa I am so sorry you got hurt again, darn it anyway! If I am out in the field with Gilly and Pokey I have my stick with me just in case. I make them stay from me, usually they are rough housing and kicking and biting each other. When I have the stick the kids are better behaved cause I will crack them if they don't. They play rough and think that I should too, no thanks boys, mom will break if you do that to me!!
Good luck with getting things under control. Hope you are able to ride again soon!
hugs...
jane
Once again, behind in posts and getting caught up. So sorry to hear this happened.
Spend some time working her butt off. Get her in a round pen or small corral, take a carriage whip or carrot stick and work her with it. Keep her moving and keep her out of your space. I was kind of working Butter the same way on my video the other day. The problem is, I was running a camera, too, and couldn't get after her like I normally would, but I wanted to demonstrate how quickly they think they are boss and how it is possible to get them turned around.
Get Apache to respect the whip which will keep her out of your space. If she tries to get close, pop her off you and move her. And don't go out without the stick.
Incorporate hand gestures; shaking a finger, for instance, to get her to back away. A trainer worked with one of our nasty colts that way so my boys could get him to back off if they didn't have a whip. It really worked well.
Yep, time for you to become the boss mare. Sounds like Colleen is a good support for you. Take her up on it. You'll feel more confident and will learn to appreciate your new role as the leader. Good luck!
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