Sunday, January 17, 2010

Natural Horsemanship Clinic ~ Part Two

 

Colleen, a friend from the horse rescue where I volunteer, as well as the clinic’s instructor, offered to let me ride one of her horses last weekend, while she would ride and work with my mare. I wanted to see how my horse would do with someone else as we getting some objective opinions on judging her temperament, and getting some feedback on whether or not Baby Doll and I are the right fit for each other.

I had told Colleen that Baby Doll is an alpha mare and tends to be stubborn, opinionated and headstrong. My mare and I have had a number of arguments over the past 2 years, focused on me asking her to do something and her telling me, ‘No, she’d rather not, thank you very much’.

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At the beginning of every trail ride, Baby Doll would have to throw a little temper tantrum with a few crow hops, some head tossing, and what I affectionately call ‘The Drunken Sailor’ routine.

We’d go down the road or trail and she would weave back towards the direction of home. I would push her back onto the trail with my leg, and we’d go back and forth like a Drunken Sailor for the first 10-15 minutes of each ride.

Sometimes when she wanted to head back to the barn, and I didn’t,  she’d try to walk backwards the entire way there. When I’d argue with her and attempt to turn her back, she’d commence spinning in circles back to the barn. (click on that link to revisit that experience again)

Yes, she was barn sour. But we began working on that over a year ago, before my fall and injuries. And we were making progress. I’d bring her back to the barn and make her work, and then we’d head back out again, doing that several times, until she never knew what to expect. She was doing better, but we still had our arguments every time we headed out for a ride.

Baby Doll hasn’t been a very spooky horse, usually only snorting while looking at something. But when she did spook, she tended to move rather catty, usually sideways….and big.

She spooked one time when some dogs were running loose on a road behind us and she took off like a rocket and bolted. (click on that link to revisit that experience again). I was easily able to one-rein stop her, but I  began to realize that I couldn’t fully trust her. That she could be unpredictable in a big way.

I also realized that, even though she acted like she wanted to be the boss, she really wanted a confidant, strong leader. She’d test me constantly, laying her ears back flat, jumping into a trot, flinging her head, crow hopping. Anything scary, just to see how it would affect me. Would I buck up and make her mind? Or would I get scared and dismount.

(Photo of a potential buyer/leaser in May 2009)

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I never did dismount and I never did let her push me around. We’d argue and argue until she finally let me win. But it got old. She was taking the joy out of riding.

I had waited all of my 40+ years to finally own my own horse. When I found Baby Doll and took riding lessons on her for a few months, before purchasing her, I thought she was the one.

But I had only ridden my mare in the arena and in the round pen at the lesson barn. I had never taken her out on a trail before bringing her home.

My dream was to have a trail horse. To combine both my love of hiking and being outdoors, with my love of horses. All of the horses I’d ridden in the past had been trail horses. They’d all been willing, hard-working, calm, just-get-on-and-ride trail horses.

I’d never experienced a horse that I had to beg, plead, coerce, push, and get tough-with just to go on a trail ride.

On the ground, Baby Doll and I just clicked. She could be sweet, patient, and funny. In the saddle, it was an entirely different ride altogether.

My neighbor friend, Val tried to work with my mare on many occasions. On one ride, she called the adventure, The Taming of The Shrew. (click on that link to revisit that experience again) It was quite a wild ride and Val didn’t back down. But I’m not as experienced a rider as she is and Baby Doll is one smart cookie and she knows it.

I’ve never been able to let my kids ride her on their own, except in the round pen. She’s not a babysitter horse at all. She will take advantage of a young, inexperienced rider and do whatever she wants

(Photo taken of a potential buyer in May 2009)

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Personally, I don’t even think she likes children. She would tolerate my daughter brushing her and running around the barn and making noise, but when I used to bring Jenna to the lesson barn, I noticed that Baby Doll would lay her ears back whenever she’d see Jenna.And once, while I was working her in the round pen and my daughter ran past, Baby Doll laid her ears back and bucked in her direction.

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Her behavior was pretty ironic because if it weren’t for my daughter, not only would our little ranch not have it’s current name, but we’d probably have never bought Baby Doll at all. (You can read more about this in my very first blog post)

Ok. Well I kind of got side-tracked. Back to the Natural Horsemanship Riding Clinic………….

Colleen knew about Baby Doll’s history and decided that she’d like to try a bit with more control on my mare. She called it a Natural Ring Bit, I believe. It’s completely round and encircles the entire jaw, goes through the mouth and underneath the jaw.

The only thing I could find close enough to what it look likes is This, this, this, and this. It looks similar to a Chifney Bit. Colleen said that Bob Allen, the horse/rider trainer here in New Mexico, uses them and says they work wonders in controlling a headstrong horse.

I don’t have a whole lot of knowledge of bits because I chose to use a Dr. Cook’s Bitless Bridle for my mare and she’s done well in it. I’ve always been told that it’s not the bit that controls a horse, it’s the rider and having a well-trained horse. A horse can ride through any bit if it really wants to.

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Baby Doll went in a hackamore when I took lessons on her. And I’ve ridden her in a side-pull bridle with a snaffle bit. She’s not happy in a bit, though, that I do know. Her relaxed attitude changes dramatically and she gets rather wild-eyed, jiggy, and ‘rough around the edges’.

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But because Baby Doll was in a new place, and in the arena with lots of riders and other horses, Colleen felt like the Ring bit would give more control. I could tell right away that Baby Doll didn’t like it. Not at all.

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Colleen rode her bareback at first and Baby Doll stood still for mounting, like a good girl, but that head went up when she felt the contact of the stiff, ring bit.

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Baby Doll also wasn’t very cooperative in flexing her neck or bending either.

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I kind of felt sorry for her as she didn’t look very relaxed or comfortable at all. She kept getting her tongue up over the top of the ring bit, too. And she looked so crazy with her tongue lolling about and her eyes all wild

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Colleen rode her for a little while in the arena, then she dismounted to help another rider and her horse. One of the other riders, Catherine, was encouraged to ride my mare bareback, and I was little worried seeing how nervous she was and how jumpy Baby Doll was acting.

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Anna, another friend from the horse rescue, as well as another one of the instructors was able to lend a calming hand, which both Baby Doll and the other rider seemed to really appreciate.

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In the end Baby Doll was ridden for about 30 minutes on Saturday and about 30 minutes on Sunday.

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Colleen finally decided that my mare was too jumpy and unpredictable in that arena environment and she didn’t feel comfortable riding her while trying to help the other riders, who were having their own issues with their horses.

I felt bad, but I can’t say I was entirely surprised.

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To be continued…………………..

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And my Project 365 photo.

Day 15. Polar Bear Paw (Taken at the Rio Grande Zoo)

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30 comments :

Deb said...

love the polar bear paw...Baby Doll is so pretty...but a hand full for sure...

Cactus Jack Splash said...

It takes the time it takes to work through issues like Baby Doll's. She is trying to talk to you, the trick is the listening part. I had a rescue horse that it took four years to sort things out with, she is now is the best friend of a young man who rides her all over the place.
Love the paw picture

Unknown said...

Ok I'll try and make this short but I never can when it's about bits. Even though I am a bitless coach and sell bitless bridles I have to say for as much as I know about bitless I know 2X as much about bits.
First of all bigger/stronger/better bits are never the answer, ever. They are just band aids for problems that are going to get bigger. It's like having a huge laceration and trying to put a teeny circle band aid on it. It may stop some of the bleeding but theres still a huge gaping cut there. Trying to cure a bitting problem with force will not fix the problem 100% because it will always show up someplace else.

IMO I just fixed a gelding with a mouth gaping/headshaking problem that gaped his mouth much the same as babydoll. Doing a lot of bitting heres what I observe here: First of all the bit is too low. You want it just high enough that its not banging on her teeth but low enough its not creating a ton of wrinkles. Shes not carrying it herself and putting her tongue over it (your one photo there with her mouth gaped looks like her tongue is over the bit). If a horse won't carry a bit usually they are very stiff in the neck, shoulders and especially the poll (as her head flinging shows us)
She needs to learn to become more supple in these three areas. I find setting cones in a strait line, four big steps apart and doing serpentines in and out of them. Do them a billion times if you have to. I use this for so many young horses, old horses, every horse. It gives you/the rider a visual to make your cues consistent.
It also appears she has not learned how to flex at the poll. This is so important, bit or bitted. A horse hollows his back when he resists rather than giving to pressure, by flinging his head.
It's a relatively easy fix but takes time. Time is your best trainer here.

I was thinking, have you ever had babydolls back checked? You mentioned before when you mounted she tossed her head and when you first started out she would crow hop etc. The hollowing of the back and the head tossing might be an indicator that she may need some adjustment in her spine/ rib cage. Might be worth getting a chiropractor out a few times to make sure theres not a physical problem before you work on her mental aspects of training.

Best of luck.

Love the bear paw picture =D

Lisa said...

Lisa, I could have written this entry. I don't know if you recall but I had bought a new horse in Sept. He was very well trained and I paid ALOT of $$$ for that! Well seems I am not a strong enough rider for him. I have the same issues you have. He is taking the joy out of riding and makes me miss my old appy so very much. I rode the same horse for 17 years so I am set in my ways and evidently Samson is set in his. I am going to get back to working with him but I understand I have to establish control & respect first so I am starting on the ground and working my way up. I'm sorry the clinic didn't go as you had wished thus far but I hope to read it improved for you & your girl. Don't give up on her or yourself!! Know that there are (alot, I presume) of us out here struggling with many of the same issues.

jane augenstein said...

Good pictures, Lisa. Bits, boy, I don't know. I have always heard that it's not about the bits, it's the respect and training. I'm no trainer but I have found that the more training I do with Gilly and the more we work on the respect issues the better he is. That's just me and him though....he hates bits so that's why we don't use one anymore. I too have the Dr. Cook's and a new bitless nose band. I think he likes the bitless nose band the best but I haven't gotten to use it but once so far.
Good luck with Baby Doll, she's a smart one.
hugs.....
Jane

Danielle Barlow said...

Seems like you and Baby Doll are having it tough. I was interested to see the natural ring bit. It does look like a chifney, and here in the UK the chifney is regarded as a particularly severe bit, and only ever used for leading in - hand, with horses that are inclined to rear. I've never seen it ridden in. Maybe the natural ring is a gentler option.
I really admire you for sticking with Baby Doll and giving things the best chance. Good Luck!
p.s. that polar bear paw is awesome!

Anonymous said...

oh baby doll...she's indeed a huge handfull. stubborn and pigheaded like my kitten who puts its paw and swats at me when i go to pet he ^..^
hugs to you

Jocelyn said...

OK Lisa...

You may or may not like what I have to say.

I am not a firm believer in NAtural horsemanship, I have rarely seen it go from ground work to being effective in the saddle.

My horse is exactly like yours, but taller :) It is about being ridden and ridden consistently, BD will never be a pasture ornament/ trail mount. These mares need constant work to make them useful memebers of society.

NOT only ridden but given a clear direction of whats what.
As much as it pains me sometime s to go out and ride in the winter I have to in order to keep her mind engaged and willingness eager.

You need more than a natural horsemanship? bareback/ 30 minute session with a trainer/clinic.
This will be WORK and alot of it.
Trust me I know, Star can do and has done all the things you have described.

I wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide to do with her.

Joanna@BooneDocksWilcox said...

I used a bitless bridle on my Paint mare too.

We had two Paint mares. When experienced-rider Mike mounted them, they were all togther different horses than when i rode 'em. My mare acted with me just like yours is with you. Have you ever witnessed a very confident, experienced rider with BabyDoll? I guarantee ya, you wouldn't recognize your own horse, there would be none of those shenanigan's. Mike would warm up my mare for me, he'd dismount and say she was fine, I'd mount her, and she'd start acting real bratty. Mike would be hollering at me to do this and that but...

Grey Horse Matters said...

Love Polar Bears and this paw is awesome.

As for Baby Doll, I'm not a trainer but she looks nervous. I might want to have her in a one on one training situation with a milder bit. I'm sure her teeth have been floated and checked. She may throw her head up if something is hurting her, once all her tack is checked and you find nothing wrong with the fit or her back, I'm sure she will benefit from some gentle thoughtful training done in a consistent manner. It looks like she really doesn't like that bit or the nervous rider on her.

small farm girl said...

I didn't realize Baby Doll had that many issues. Sounds like you might be horse hunting pretty soon. Good luck either way.

Alison said...

I'm no horse expert, so I'll leave the advice to others! I just noticed how well you summarized BD's personality and needs, as well as your own. That seems pretty important.

Staying tuned for Part 3...

Shirley said...

Well. I'm not going to get into the pros and cons of bits,and it's obvious your mare has issues. The question is, whether or not it's worth your time , expenditure, and emotional toll, to fix, or if you want to pursue the pleasure of owning a horse you can love on all levels,it's up to you, girl. (((hugs)))
Bear paw- awesome!

Pony Girl said...

I'm glad you had the opportunity to do the clinic. I agree with a few other commenters, I can't recall if you've ever had her checked by a chiropractor? She just really looks unhappy in all of those riding pictures (except the final two, she looks more relaxed) beyond that of just a defiant horse. A defiant horse has confidence. She looks like she is in pain, scared, and so uncomfortable. Her ears are even pinned, and not like she is just listening to the rider, but hers like like angry ears. Did she do any of this when you took lessons on her (before you bought her?) I think she needs to go into training with a good, confident trainer who can properly assess her and see if they can get her moving well under saddle. I wish you lived closer and Paint Girl's trainer could take a look and ride her. She's so good. I truly wish you the best on this journey, but I think it's just beginning. I really want to see you enjoying your horse and hitting those trails and being in nature. I know it's what you dream of doing. Bless your heart, it's going to be tough but you need to decide if you want to spend the time and money to put BD through training (with no guarantee that she'll work out) or find a horse that is already what you are looking for.

Dusty Devoe said...

What great comments ont his post. I can relate on that backing up crap they do. Dusty did that once when we were going out for a ride, and some other horses were coming back. He thought he needed to go with them. He started backing really fast, and it scared the crap out of me. I had just gone off a few weeks before. Anyway, I let him win that day. But the next time he tried, I grabbed my reins and was going to swat his hiney, and he saw that and decided he's go! Good luck with your girl. I think you are in love with her, and want to give her every opportunity for a good fit. HUGS!

Unknown said...

I think it's good that you can see this isn't in your mind, that another rider has significant problems with this horse.

You are a beginning rider. Period. This horse needs someone who has the experience and confidence to work through these issues.

I had a lousy ride myself this weekend. What did we get ourselves into?

Dan and Betty said...

Hey, I just wanted to stop in, but I can't think of any new comments. You've gotten them from all perspectives.

You know that Betty had to make the hard choice that Gletta was not the right horse for her, but it was the right thing to do.

Best wishes on whatever you decide.

Dan

cdncowgirl said...

Ring bits aren't made for flexing/bending so its not too surprising that that part of the day didn't go too well for BD.

Barn/Herd sour is a PITA to deal with, I've been there! It takes a lot of work, many small baby steps. So if you do decide to keep BD take heart that it is possible. Your plan of making being "home" more work is a good one.

Re bits - what you were taught about any well trained horse being able to use any bit is flawed. No two horses mouths are shaped exactly the same, therefore not all horses feel comfortable even just carrying all bits.
For instance my mare's mouth is built with a fairly low palate and ANY kind of port bit is uncomfortable for her.
Also not all bits are made the same. A low quality, poorly made bit will not feel as "nice" in the mouth as a good bit will.
Even with a good bit, different bits work in different ways. And then there is bit fit. Kimfer just recently found out her gelding's mouth is a bit wider than what most bits fit. He'd been tossing his head, acting sullen and not working well because the bits she used were "normal" size and pinching his lips.
Remember, just like you may try 10 pairs of sneakers, which basically all look the same - like SNEAKERS, doesn't mean you feel comfortable in all 10.

Laughing Orca Ranch said...

CDN Cowgirl,

I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I never said 'any well trained horse can use any bit'.

What I said (copied and pasted here) was: I’ve always been told that it’s not the bit that controls a horse, it’s the rider and having a well-trained horse. A horse can ride through any bit if it really wants to."

Which means that bits are not what control a horse. Bits are for communication ONLY. They do not control a horse.

Also, I am fully aware that every horse mouth is different and that some horses can't even take a bit. Which is exactly why my own mare never went well in any bit and why I chose to use the Dr. Cook's Bitless Bridle or a hackamore to ride her.

~Lisa

Nuzzling Muzzles said...

Yeah, the way she throws her head up and stretches her neck out and gets her tongue over the bit all seems like it wouldn't be fun to handle.

Only you can make a bear paw look like a flower.

Far Side of Fifty said...

I wish you a horse you can ride, one that it as patient with you as you are with her, one that you can trail ride with. It seems to me..that you are beating a dead horse here ( pardon the pun)..you would be better off with a different horse and she would be better off with a different rider. Hard decision for you to make..I suppose you think of it as giving up..it isn't it is just recognizing that all the battles are not worth the war. I hope I have not upset you..as that was not my intention:)

Leah Fry said...

I am on the edge of my seat. I'm very anxious to hear how the rest of it went. You know all too well that I have one with issues as well.

Amazing shot of the bear paw.

Gail said...

I see she is a bit uncomfortable. At least we know the saddle is not the problem.

She is such a beautiful horse.

I am like you, in that, I want one I can trust, one I feel safe on. I know we are supposed to be the leader but I am still learning to lead and need some help from the horse.

Hang in there.

Patrinas Pencil said...

Well, Lisa, it was nice to have all those links to fill me in on the rest of the story, although I had just read the first one this morn. It's hard to try and find the right post when you're coming in late on a story. I didn't know what "barn sour " was when i posted this morning, but now I know :)

I can't help but see that FEAR in her eyes on the 4th pic with your daughter. From my perspective, and again, I know nothing about horses, that is a look of fear. The other reason I say this is because of the way you describe her acting when the other younger daughter walked past. BD has a history before you. And I'm inclined to believe that that's her control issue. She controls her environment to maintain her need for safety and protection.

Just my 2 cents :)

I do love the polar bear pic. I agree with Nuzzling Muzzles, that paw look like a flower :) I also love the last picture of BD walking back into the barn or trailer with the row of fences in the backgroud. Nice comforting shot of BD.

Head up, girl! reach for the stars tonight

Patrina <")>><

Greener Pastures--A City Girl Goes Country said...

Very interesting post. I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out. I wish I had time to read everyone's responses.

I agree with what you said about the bits. Going to a stronger bit rarely fixes a problem. However, Babydoll looks like she might not be completely "broke" in that it appears she doesn't know how to give to bit pressure. Round pen work, tying her head back to the saddle or surcingle to teach her to give to the pressure could help. Also, I'm not familiar with that bit but it looks like it's hanging too low.

It really stinks when a horse you love takes the joy out of riding. I've been through it as I think you know. Sometimes, especially with the bossy alpha type horses, they need a more aggressive person. I'm not very aggressive with my horses. I'm too much of a softy. I always feel sorry for them, lol. You'd think a mellow kind of horse would be best for me, but no, it's the nervous, jumpy type because he doesn't argue with me about who's boss and that's good since I'm not tough. I'm going to bet Babydoll is bossy and mellow and not jumpy and nervous.

Andrea -Mustang Saga said...

It sounds like you're moving toward making a decision to sell your mare. I just wanted to say I hope you don't feel too bad if that's what you decide to do. Horses are expensive, a lot of work, and expensive. :) You should have one you enjoy. Granted, the perfect horse doesn't come along and offer itself to anyone, we all have to do some sort of training to keep them in good form, but that doesn't mean you have to keep a horse that isn't a good match for you. It's not fair to you or the horse. So for what it's worth, which probably isn't much, I totally support you in whatever you decide.

Sherry Sikstrom said...

A couple people have mentioned the fit of the bridle(bit too low) and a few others about the work BD, may need to be a better mount for you. All I will add is like Shirley ,I wondser at what cost to you. BD isa a cute mare and in the right hands may have the potential for a good career .I think for you at least right now, a more settled "steady Eddie" would be a better fit . Good luck with whatever you choose , sounds like you have a great group of people supporting you with this

Bob Cook said...

Your horse has already thanked you for discovering my bridle but I would like to add my thanks too!

I also have a favor to ask if you would be so kind as to contact me 'off-blog.'

Thank you

Janice said...

Hey Lisa just got caught up with your posts. I could sure see a lot of highs and lows in those photos.I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on horse anything but having been there in the past I sure know how you feel. All I want to say is if you are leaning towards working on your Mare some more go right back to the basics from the ground up so to speak.You may find that is the way to go. I wish you all the best with this no matter what you decide to do.

Denise- LessIsMore17 said...

Wow, Baby Doll really looks unhappy in those photos. I never knew you had such problems with her on the trails. But I feel your pain, Less hated trail and it takes all the fun out of it when you have to force them to go.

So you are looking to lease or sell her?